D1: Atheism is the belief that there is no god or that god does not exist (I take both sides of this conjunction to mean the same thing)
Cor: there is another definition of atheism, which is that it is the belief that the God of the world Religions does not exist, but since I believe that we would all agree that this is Spinoza’s opinion (see the TTP), it would be pointless to use this definition in this debate.
D2: Pantheism is the belief that nature is God
D3: The term God in both cases refers to some thing that is worthy of worship.
Schol: I use the term thing so that any conception of god would apply to it. This is not to be confused with the concept of God itselfs, which would cause this discussion to get bogged down into a discussion of God, which is not completely relevant.
I think that we can all agree on the above definitions (if not that will come up at some point in this debate) yet it seems that more clarification is needed. So the question seems to be whether or not Spinoza believes that god is worthy of worship. If he does, then he would be a pantheist, if not, then he is an atheist. The first step seems to be that the term worship needs to be clearly defined. Once that task is completed, it will be possible to look at Spinoza’s work and determine whether or not he is an atheist or a pantheist.
While we often think that worship has a religious connotation, there are many types of worship. Beyond worshiping god, there is worship of idols, there is worship of monarchs and heads of states, and there is even to one’s boss. It is also often the case that in intimate relationships between two people, one or both parties worship the other. The question then becomes what is common to all these types worship. In some sense it seems that it is some internal acknowledgement of the greatness of the worshiped, it seems that the important part of this is the public aspect of this acknowledgement. It seems that one can not be said to worship a monarch without publicly showing it. In order to truly worship some thing or some one, there must be some public aspect to this worship. there also seems to be another part of worship where one admits his or her subservience to that thing. In the case of a monarch it is acknowledging your place under the monarch. In the case of a lover, it’s your devotion to that person. So, I propose that worship is the the public acknowledgement of the the greatness of some thing, and your subservience to it.
Given that i can now show how Spinoza is an Atheist. Spinoza never publicly acknowledged the greatness of his conception of God nor did he make any public claims to be subservient to it. In fact the only type of worship Spinoza did in his life were in the form Judaic and Christian religious services. Now the claim might be made that Spinoza’s ethics were in it of themselves a form of worship. However this claim does not apply to Spinoza. This claim could be made of a person who intends to have his work published. For example, it might be legitimate to say that Einstein's work was a form of worship to Spinoza’s conception of God. However, Spinoza’s ethics was his private sentiments, which he never had any intention of publishing and were not written in an easily accessible language. Only after his death was his work published by friends of his. This privateness of his ethics makes it clear that Spinoza’s God was a private sentiment and not something that needed to be worshiped. As such, following from the definitions about, Spinoza was an Atheist.
How does it follow that worshiping must be done in public from the fact that monarchs are worshiped in public?
ReplyDeleteWorship is simply ascribing some value or some worth to something or someone. It is not a public display of your affection or your dedication.
Worship can occur privately and personally and I would like to say that it is mostly a personal practice.For instance I can say I worship bananas but if I secretly don't see the importance of the yellow fruit or understand why I must worship it then despite what I say or do publicly, privately I do not recognize the value and therefore it holds no importance.
Spinoza's private and personal quest for God is enough to display the value he ascribed to him. It doesn't matter if he was in the church everyday because he had a clear inclination and experience of the divine or else there would have been no compulsion to write about it.
Hi Brad,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the interesting post.
First of all, pantheism doesn’t just call nature God, because even the term nature could somehow be separated or externalized from existence (it’s easy to think of nature as something outside of ourselves, instead of thinking of ourselves and all things also as nature), so I think a more accurate term would be the Universe (or multi-verse if you’re into theoretical physics :) So yes, God literally is the Universe. God is what actually exists. That means you, me, & all modes of existence. Pantheism is actually the highest order of monotheism because it intrinsically prescribes one power, one presence, one mind, at work in the Universe: God. Pantheism doesn’t require you to entertain any mythological stories (Jewish-mythology: God hands scrolls to man on mountain, Christian-mythology: man comes back from the dead, Islamic-mythology: man rides horse through 7 layers of heaven, etc, etc) Pantheism only concerns itself with what actually exist: what is true. In a way, you could think of God as the proper-noun God, whom exist as existence or infinity (3rd order knowing), but you could also think of God as a verb, God-ing in terms of God expressing as finite things, within the dimension of time. Anytime we get too caught-up in the imagination and story-telling about God (though the stories can be fun and interesting and I personally like to read them as an anthropological understanding of the human psyche) they are not actually true (there are some eternal truths embedded in the stories, but they are not actually true). Humanity has deep (very deep!) roots in mythological story-telling as a way to explain things that we were not intellectually sophisticated enough to understand yet. But as Kant says, we are now in the age of rational enlightenment and though it may appear as though Spinoza is an atheist because he doesn’t adhere to primitive understandings of God, he is actually a “God intoxicated man” because he only concerns himself with truth (or God, because God is also truth). So even though it may seem uncomfortable to not” believe” in a God whom is outside or externalized from existence, the reality is that God, insofar as he is true, is much more fascinating! This is why Spinoza mentions how interesting it is in the TPT that men want to see outrageous miracles to prove God…. Why would people want to see things in their imaginations “come true” when what God actually is (the domain of reality, not imagination), is so much more fascinating?
For example, since we exist in the body of God, isn’t it awesome that mass can never be created nor destroyed, but only eternally change shape? Sounds like substance? God? And the fine line between mass and energy, especially when you get into relativity theory…. That when we reach the edges of the Universe, we find they are expanding. Or that by newtons universal gravitation the planets are exerting gravitational forces (however minute) on you, and that the whole Universe is connected by these forces. Or that many species use the earth’s magnetic field to migrate… not to mention transcendental numbers (did you know there are computers set-up generating digits of pie over 200 billion numbers to the right of the decimal point with absolutely no pattern! Gods infinite randomness is so cool!) Or even greeting-card worthy aspects of God, like no two snow-flakes are alike :) Pantheism doesn’t require one to entertain inadequate ideas, and besides, what God actually is, God the true, is SO much more fascinating than any story and its domain only consists of reality.
Falling in love with God is falling in love with this beautiful world we live and wanting to understand it as much as possible. [because that would be understanding God! ie: Blessedness]
ReplyDeleteHowever, the irony about God is this: it actually doesn’t matter what you believe. Someone can say they are an atheist and they don’t believe in God. Ok, fine. Someone can say they believe Jesus is God’s son and they are going to heaven when they die. Ok, fine. Someone can say they believe that God handed Moses a scroll/commandments on a mountain and they must follow levitcal law. Ok, fine. You can even belong to the Mormon-cult and think you get your own Universe or Planet when you die! Ok, cool! (excuse me God, but I asked for rings, not frozen bodies of water!! And where’s my moons!? Damn God! :) It doesn’t really matter, because ultimately that person exists, and they exist in God, and God/reality/truth doesn’t depend on their belief. God is. They have the opportunity to truly understand God through their intellect or not, but what they believe doesn’t really matter outside of their own experience, because one can have a true experienced based on an inadequate idea. For example, let’s say I don’t believe in the law of gravity. Ok, so what? Gravity exists and as long as I’m on the Earth’s surface it’s going to hold me here at 9.8m/s^2. So there is belief, then there is reality. Pantheism only engages with reality… God… Truth… What actually exists. So this is the difference between “believing” in God, and knowing God. I suggest to anyone who is seeking, to actually know God, because what God actually is, is sooooo cool! & so much more fascinating!! ps. You don’t have to give up prayer to be a pantheist! Simply because your mind is a thought in the mind of God and ironically you are always in prayer by the fact that you have consciousness! Prayer is actually a constant state of the human mind as God expresses thought through mind. Of course one can have a more focused and conscious prayer and religions seem to emphasis this conscious ritualized prayer, but in reality, if you are thinking or have consciousness, you are praying.
So this idea you have where you want to monopolize worship as a public displays only… I honestly think this is absurd. There are many ways to worship. Some men pray, some men pray in public, some men pray through their minds only, some people’s have used dance as a primary form of worship, many religions utilize ritual as worship, silent meditation, holy diet, I mean this list could be endless…. So I think your premises are faulty, but even if they were accurate, you conclusion is certainly incorrect, therefore so is your whole argument. Spinoza is a Pantheist, who understood the reality that we exist in God. He cleared his mind of mythology, and only concerned himself with understanding what actually exists and reality. He married his intellect and used reason to derive his understanding of the world/of God. There is no higher order of knowing God intellectually than this.
Some men worship God by writing books about God, like Hosea, Mark, and Vyasa. And so did Spinoza, as his first book is affectionately titled: God.
ReplyDeleteAlso, your whole argument is similar to the argument Nadler makes. (shall I start calling you Brad the Nadler-ist :) Which at the end of the day, Nadler is the Atheist and wants to use Spinoza to support his own ideological construct. But again, it doesn’t matter if someone doesn’t believe in God, because we are IN GOD, as we exist. You don’t have to believe in the Sun for it to shine. So it doesn’t really matter what you, me, Nadler, Dr.Vaught, or anyone else believes. Truth is its own cause and proof (intuitive knowing), and Truth isn’t contingent on belief, truth is, as GOD IS. But truth can also be an invitation to engage with life on the level of reality, if we allow it and so desire. But I can’t be annoyed that Nadler is trying to recruit Spinoza to his atheistic ends, because by Spinoza’s Ethics, what’s wrong with using anything within our means for our own ends :) besides, if I was an atheist, I’d want Spinoza to be an atheist too! And if I was a Christian, I’d want Spinoza to be a Christian! If I was a Jew…. Well, you get the point. :) But I’m not any of those (or I’m all of those?), I’m a pantheist, so I’ll just let Spinoza be what he is...
I’m still waiting for you tell me what you think God is :) Just something to be worshipped publicly? That’s boring. Subservience? – c’mon, that sounds soooo middle-ages... You can do better than that... Wink-wink :)
Alex,
ReplyDeleteI think it is interesting that you claim that God is merely the universe/multiverse. This to some degree limits God to things that exist, which i am not sure is fair to the belief.
i think Ramon's point about worship being the ascription of value or worth to something is dead on. However, the standard conception of worship is an act of devotion that ascribes this value or worth to something. I find it hard to accept that someone's notes on a subject can in any way shape or form be considered worship. If that were the case then every single book written about religion or God, should be considered worship, which i think is absurd.
There is also an aspect of worship that entails that the object is sacred, something which I do not believe that Spinoza thinks of God (any proof to the contrary would be useful here). I think that his whole point about religion's misconception of God in the TTP is that they worship a greater being. It seems that Spinoza's whole point is that true religion would require you to follow a certain moral code, but worshiping a God would be completely unnecessary.
As for my conception of God, the nice thing about philosophy is that you can withhold judgement on what you think is true if you do not have all the evidence. I do not believe that I am yet in a position of being able to make any claims about what God is and what God is not. I think there are many different conceptions of God, but they all have one thing in common, which is that God is some thing greater than man. Is God worthy of reverence, Philosophically, I withhold judgement, but Spinoza seems to make it clear that the answer to that is no.
Hey Brad,
ReplyDeleteYou are totally right, God is infinite (or absolute infinity – thanks Spinoza for clarifying that!) and the Universe is expanding and who knows where science (the study of God as finite expression) will lead us in 250 years…. Maybe we’ll find out there are infinite Universes and each one is just a cell in the body of God? But there is absolutely no limit to God, as God is infinite, so I just use the word Universe for means of conversation. But yes, you are right, God is infinite, so Big and so Great, there are probably so many planes of existence that humans beings couldn’t even begin to comprehend a fraction of them. We barely have a grip on our plane of existence!!!! But you are right, there is so much more than what we can perceive (we actually perceive so little, like how small is the visible spectrum of light?) That beginning to discuss God in terms of “entirety” is impossible. But that is also what makes God so cool and what makes this life so awesome!!.... is that we get this chance to exist and live this life that is such a gift and so short, and there is so much learn, and if you’re hungry for knowledge, God will keep feeding you!
I hear what you are saying about worship, but I think your approach is very antiquated and dependent upon an externalized God for it to make sense. And I’m sorry, but that God doesn’t exist, so it doesn’t make sense. For example, if I’m a Christian or a religious Jewish, and I go to Church or Synagogue, and I follow one of the ritualized prayers, listen to scripture readings, hear a talk by my preacher or rabbi, yadda, yadda then I think you would agree that this is worship. But for these people, God is externalized, so they take some time out of their week, out of their day, out of their life, to stop and acknowledge God’s beauty for an hour or two, maybe even every day if they are “religious”, then they go about their daily lives.
But for Pantheists, who know we exist IN GOD, the focus is less on taking an hour or two out of your week, or day, but more on your daily life. Because in reality, God exist as us, and through us, so how one lives’ their life is actually more of a reflection on how much they value and appreciate God, than what they do in an hour or two each day or week. In a way, one’s entire life becomes their worship, because everything we do, say, think, touch, feel, experience, value, etc, etc, becomes our personal contribution towards life, towards God. This is why Spinoza spends so much time on fear influencing one's relationship with God in the Ethics, because it isn't holy to live a religious life (or any life) out of fear. It is our entire life that is our worship, it’s how we treat others (because in fact, “others” are just “other” finite expressions of God), so it’s how we treat GOD, it’s how we treat ourselves (exercise, rest, etc), it’s what we do with our time on Earth, it’s everything, it’s LIFE. So it’s not just every book written about God or Religion that is worship. It’s actually EVERY BOOK EVER WRITTEN. Because what one does with their life, is their worship. What I contribute to this plane of existence is my worship. If I’m kind to people, help the needy (help God expressed as finite things), live a value-driven life and ascribe to a personal moral code that respects and honors myself and others, contribute a collection of poetry to the American canon, raise children with morals and values, etc, etc. My life is my worship.
ReplyDeleteWhen I die, there will be a tombstone with the date of my birth, the date of my death, and then there will be a dash in between. When it’s all over and done with, it doesn’t matter what I believe, what matters is that dash. How did I live my life? What were my values? What did I contribute to the world? It’s natural to want to contribute something to life, every human being has this feeling. It’s natural for everything living to want to grow and express deeper and in a more authentic way, because that is how God gets to express, through us. So our desires in life are actually holy, and what wants to birth in us is also holy, as that is God growing and expanding in us, through us. That is why it is vital to ones growth in life to pursue their interests, passions, and dreams. So if you want to be a professor (I think you mentioned that once?), that is a holy desire and that is God expressing through you, as you, and there is a reason we are called to things in life, it’s our calling, our contribution, our divinity wanting to express.
So yes, LIFE IS HOLY, God is holy, and everything you do, say, think, etc, etc culminates into your relationship with the divine. There is no separation. You don’t take time out of your life to worship God, it’s your life that is your worship of God, because you are IN GOD. Of course Spinoza revered God and found Life/God to be sacred! He wrote a book about God/Life! What else do you want from the man?!?! He mentions MANY times throughout both of his books, that if the reader doesn’t understand something, then he suggests spending some time in mediation and contemplating the subject. Can you imagine how much time Spinoza must have had to spend in meditation/contemplation to reach the Ethics?!?!?! The man devoted his entire life to Philosophy and contributed to the canon. He gave up his Jewish community (imagine if your brother wouldn’t talk to you), having a partner and family, all so he could live his truth and pursue what wanted to birth in him. (He even learned Latin and wrote in Latin! I'm so envious, I wish I knew Latin!!) He had a calling and he listened. If that isn’t taking the gift of life from God and doing something holy with it, I honestly don’t know what is……
I don’t think Spinoza had to sit down and specifically write that God is worthy of reverence, I think his life intrinsically speaks to that.